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Forum: Charcoal and Pencil Drawings Techniques with J.D. Hillberry

This board is dedicated to artists who are interested in producing drawings as finished artwork rather than using it as a preparatory medium. Please feel free to post your work here and to offer helpful critiques for others.

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  1. This board has been created for artists interested in the traditional academic techniques used to draw and paint from life such as sight sizing, artist's anatomy, composition, drawing nature, plein air painting, etc. The use of reference photos and g

    Moderators:

    1. beth
    2. J D Hillberry

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    Forum Statistics:

    • Threads: 468
    • Posts: 6,137
  1. Sticky Thread Sticky: Post your photos here for artists to draw

    So here's what the group from the previous thread decided: No deadlines. We'll just let it flow in as final piece or WIP through time. Everyone can participate. Let's try and keep out comments on this thread that don't include a picture, we don't want to be digging through pages of...

    Started by CAO, 01-11-2006 11:57 PM
    29 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 29
    • Replies: 287
    • Views: 66,329
    04-16-2010 05:05 PM Go to last post
  2. Sticky Thread Sticky: Drawings and sketches from members' photos

    This thread is dedicated to sketches and drawings, done exclusively from the photographs posted for that purpose at the thread photos for artists to draw - by CAO .... ***** This thread welcomes each, and everyone's submissions and comments ***** The first one is done from a photo of Beth,...

    Started by Jet, 01-20-2006 03:38 PM
    46 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 46
    • Replies: 458
    • Views: 71,805
    03-11-2010 11:56 PM Go to last post
  3. Sticky Thread Sticky: Public domain and royalty-free references.

    I thougt it would be useful to collect some sources of public domain and royalty free reference photos. http://www.aoa.gov/PRESS/multimed/photos/multimed_photos.asp http://www.sdst.org/shs/library/cfimages.html http://www.princetonol.com/groups/iad/lessons/middle/histlink.htm ...

    Started by Jeremy Lee, 04-02-2008 08:16 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 14
    • Views: 7,505
    02-28-2010 08:04 PM Go to last post
  4. Sticky Thread Sticky: Welcome from the moderator

    Welcome: I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome everyone to the new art papa drawing technique forum. Mr. Antonov has asked me to moderate this discussion board concerning drawing techniques. This board will be dedicated to artists interested in producing drawings as finished artwork...

    Started by J D Hillberry, 04-07-2008 11:07 AM
    • Replies: 0
    • Views: 3,703
    04-07-2008 11:07 AM Go to last post
  5. Sticky Thread Sticky: Appropriate threads for this forum

    My drawing techniques forum gets almost 4 times more traffic and responses than any other forum and I’m very pleased to see that we have grown so much and still kept our friendly atmosphere. We have so many more posts these days that new threads can move down very quickly and get lost in the...

    Started by J D Hillberry, 12-31-2005 07:09 PM
    • Replies: 1
    • Views: 7,870
    01-02-2006 08:53 PM Go to last post
  6. Sticky Thread Sticky: Copyright info links

    Copyright law is very complex. As far as I know, we don't have any copyright lawyers here at AP and even if we did, they would probably disagree on some points. The information in this post should not be considered legal advice. These are some helpful links for anyone interested in exploring...

    Started by J D Hillberry, 12-31-2005 08:13 PM
    • Replies: 0
    • Views: 6,550
    12-31-2005 08:13 PM Go to last post
  1. Newest Gallery Piece (NUDITY WARNING)

    It's been a while and a lot has happened, but i'm basically back on track and focused on art again. Here's one of a series of 4 that is going to an art dealer in Florida. think i'm about half way done.i'm racing the clock on this one cause i need to get this piece in the mail asap. around 10 hours...

    Started by DefiantArtistry.com, 08-17-2010 03:03 AM
    • Replies: 2
    • Views: 92
    08-24-2010 03:44 AM Go to last post
  2. Commission done

    Soooo, here it is:http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/226/f/a/Heidi_by_BrianFIN.jpg

    Started by brianFIN, 08-14-2010 05:01 AM
    • Replies: 1
    • Views: 59
    08-14-2010 05:49 AM Go to last post
  3. My pencil drawings

    Hello everyone! Here are some of my sketches. I am really into the horror style of art. Not sure if any one is familiar with the band Cannibal Corpse but all of there album covers have really motivated me to get back into drawing.I have been drawing for a few years but I have been working hard...

    Started by Reese Sursely, 08-02-2010 06:59 PM
    • Replies: 1
    • Views: 129
    08-13-2010 05:45 PM Go to last post
  4. Jessica Biel Drawing WIP

    This is the start of a new 11x14 drawing of actress Jessica Biel. I'm working from left to right in small 2x2 areas at a time. I am using HB, 6B, and 9B graphite. I'm looking for shapes in the hair to draw and closing in on the light strands. I'm using single pencil lines for the focused hairs and...

    Started by pencildrawn, 04-15-2010 05:37 AM
    8 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 8
    • Replies: 79
    • Views: 3,438
    07-31-2010 05:46 PM Go to last post
  5. Attempt at composition - 20 - Gopika Vasthrapaharana ( Nudity warning )

    Something I have been contemplating since I got introduced to some of William Bouguereau's arts, specifically, his work on the nudes. The title might sound weird, but here goes the translation. Gopika - Catttle herdress Vasthra - cloth/es apaharana - stealing So, it means, stealing of the...

    Started by Kiran TS, 12-31-2009 09:57 AM
    17 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 17
    • Replies: 168
    • Views: 7,787
    07-25-2010 10:00 PM Go to last post
  6. Horse Fever / WIP / Graphite

    Its time to stop being lazy. I have a drawing sitting here that I need to finish. I'm drawing this for a lady under the condition that she hangs it in a popular horse stable where a lot of rich people stable their horses. I'm looking to get exposure with this piece. She supplied me with several...

    Started by Poecilotheria_27, 06-15-2009 12:55 PM
    3 Pages
    1 2 3
    • Replies: 21
    • Views: 1,069
    07-25-2010 03:05 PM Go to last post
  7. Lull on AP ?

    I sense a kind of lull on AP not seen before in the time I've been a member here. Kind of miss the days when there is to be good participation and lots of exchange of ideas, methods, techniques amongst all levels of expertise and styles. More and more I see that , that level of participation is a...

    Started by Kiran TS, 07-12-2010 04:27 PM
    3 Pages
    1 2 3
    • Replies: 25
    • Views: 744
    07-24-2010 08:19 PM Go to last post
  8. a new sketchbook started

    Hi, usually i post in animal section, but i would like show some trials i made in my sketchbook. Greets David

    Started by David Thomsen, 07-24-2010 06:41 AM
    • Replies: 0
    • Views: 85
    07-24-2010 06:41 AM Go to last post
  9. Muir Woods wip

    Hi guys, Its been awhile since I have last posted/drawn. Anyway this is the starting of my latest drawing. It is of a photo I took when i was travelling in the states. The reference photo is also attached. The drawing is a lot more looser than I normally do, but I thought I'd try...

    Started by John Amsler, 06-25-2010 11:29 PM
    3 Pages
    1 2 3
    • Replies: 25
    • Views: 697
    07-23-2010 05:42 PM Go to last post
  10. New forum

    Was surprised to get an email about a refresh to the forums site. Hopefully, this will kick AP out of a lull ?? :11000000: Here is the link to the new site: http://forum.artpapa.com/ I like the new look and interface, though might need a little getting used to, is looking cool for now. ...

    Started by Kiran TS, 07-22-2010 10:19 AM
    • Replies: 6
    • Views: 217
    07-23-2010 01:56 PM Go to last post
  11. SketchBook Project: 2011

    At Kiran's recommendation, I checked out this thing called the Sketchbook project. It's an awesome idea set up a few years ago by the people at Art House Co-op. So I signed up! The theme I chose is 'Figuring You Out'. I think it best suits my style of artwork. I only have a few pages done so far,...

    Started by Alaina Grace, 07-08-2010 12:36 PM
    • Replies: 9
    • Views: 370
    07-23-2010 10:21 AM Go to last post
  12. Atchafalaya Sunrise

    Well here I go with another memory. When dad and I would fish in the Atchafalaya Swamp, frequently we would haul a pirogue, a very small boat resembling a canoe, behind our bigger fishing boat. This would allow us to transfer from the bigger boat into the smaller boat to get into those tight spots...

    Started by electricajun, 07-13-2010 10:28 PM
    • Replies: 4
    • Views: 191
    07-21-2010 11:04 PM Go to last post
  13. Tall Timbers Morning Meditation

    As usual, the page is covered in charcoal ready to be pushed, scrubbed, blended, erased and re-covered again. The details are: - soft charcoal (beginning) and harder, compressed charcoal (later stages) - kneaded eraser, tissue and fingers - Strathmore 400 Series, 80#, 18x24 drawing paper I'll...

    Started by electricajun, 07-19-2010 06:16 PM
    • Replies: 2
    • Views: 114
    07-21-2010 10:46 PM Go to last post
  14. Wip's of my latest drawing

    Here's a couple of pic's of my latest drawing. Just started it 2 days ago and so far put approximately 10 hours into it. http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/dezkenob1/BulbWIPv1.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/dezkenob1/BulbWIPv1full.jpg Apologies for the quality,...

    Started by Dezkenob1, 05-24-2010 10:08 AM
    3 Pages
    1 2 3
    bulb, glass, light, metal, pencil
    • Replies: 29
    • Views: 933
    07-21-2010 04:52 PM Go to last post
  15. my new drawing and new profile

    Dear all artfriend, long time no see!!! Wish you all well!!!! Just finish a new drawing. So sorry that long time didn't here. Please come to my page to visit my drawing and the step by step. http://www.facebook.com/pages/paullungs-art/134045119942531?ref=mf http://paullung.deviantart.com/

    Started by paullung, 06-30-2010 11:37 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 10
    • Views: 382
    07-21-2010 02:20 PM Go to last post
  16. Facing The Day....

    New works ahead. This one is going to be entered in the annual River Road show in Baton Rouge, Louisiana this December. Shouldn't take too long to finish.

    Started by maureen, 07-15-2009 12:48 PM
    5 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 5
    • Replies: 42
    • Views: 1,937
    07-21-2010 12:59 PM Go to last post
  17. A commission: Hair the bane of my life

    Hello everyone, I haven't been on ArtPapa for a while now and have missed it. I recently got a commission to do but don't know how much to charge. Any guidelines or suggestions? Specs: Paper: Bristol smooth Size: 14 * 14 Medium: Graphite I am now moving on to the hair which is the bane...

    Started by iloverain, 03-25-2010 11:07 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 10
    • Views: 374
    07-21-2010 12:51 PM Go to last post
  18. landscape...

    well sorta...this is a buddy of mines dad

    Started by Evergreen, 07-08-2010 03:26 PM
    • Replies: 2
    • Views: 186
    07-20-2010 06:26 AM Go to last post
  19. May WIP

    I could not find her name nor think of a interesting title. so I prefer the month :) This one is much smaller than the last portrait and it is pretty difficult for me to top that last one in regards to skill. It is not the eyes that drew me to this portrait because there was not much shadow...

    Started by scott_c, 05-10-2010 10:28 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 19
    • Views: 793
    07-20-2010 06:17 AM Go to last post
  20. Skin Smoothness Test - Nudity Warning

    Hello my good friends. I have been away, but I haven't stop drawing :) As some of you know, I have a lot of problems with one of my latest drawings - "prenda aniversario". Even with all the advices that You have given me, I had no success with it. I reach a point where I just have to erase...

    Started by JoanaT, 07-05-2010 09:01 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 11
    • Views: 449
    07-19-2010 10:39 AM Go to last post
  21. Doodles at the airport

    Back home from a 10 day vacation. Had ample time waiting for flights/connections as well as in-flight journey time and managed to crank out a couple of doodles as well as some sketches for my Self portrait WIP. Here are 2 random ones. The first one was pretty quick one. Just looking around from...

    Started by Kiran TS, 12-28-2008 09:52 PM
    10 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 10
    • Replies: 98
    • Views: 4,237
    07-16-2010 09:35 AM Go to last post
  22. Will Smith WIP

    ive been busy doing a few dog portraits lately and fancied a change. so heres the beginnings of an A3 pencil drawing of Will Smith, still very much a work in progress http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/conty0/IMG_0495-1.jpg?t=1278339426 ...

    Started by conty, 07-05-2010 09:14 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 19
    • Views: 457
    07-16-2010 04:34 AM Go to last post
  23. Tree's?

    I'm about to start a new drawing and been playing around with foliage but Im not satisfied with the outcome.I can pull off background tree's OK but have trouble with foreground foliage.With time I can make something work but the paper is really overworked.Anyone have any pointers?Don't assume I...

    Started by Cory Mckinnon, 07-12-2010 06:06 PM
    • Replies: 3
    • Views: 182
    07-15-2010 10:16 AM Go to last post
  24. WIP, Baby commission

    This is a commissioned work that im doing....very hard with the detail, I love detail though... But man these textures are kicking my butt haha. Let me know what ya think! I attached the original pic so you can see what the textures look like....how do you guys think I should attempt the...

    Started by enderxwillxsave, 06-09-2010 12:09 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 14
    • Views: 469
    07-15-2010 08:24 AM Go to last post
  25. Atchafalaya Basin Camp

    The Atchafalaya Basin is a very expansive swamp between Lafayette and Baton Rouge, La. It is one of the most beautiful areas of the state, where, many years ago, my dad and I spent many great fishing days together. I'm in the process of completing an oil painting of this scene and thought I'd do a...

    Started by electricajun, 05-30-2010 09:31 PM
    3 Pages
    1 2 3
    • Replies: 22
    • Views: 785
    07-13-2010 10:42 PM Go to last post
  26. Drawing Jacob Tutorial - WIP

    Supplies - 2H, HB, 6B, 9B graphite, 11x14 Beckett Enhance Arctic 80# cover weight paper, and a kneaded eraser. This is the beginning, the first pencil marks on paper. The photo reference is of my son Jacob. I am doing this drawing between other projects or drawings so it may be slow progress....

    Started by pencildrawn, 06-27-2010 05:08 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 12
    • Views: 504
    07-13-2010 09:54 PM Go to last post
  27. Third in the (Four)Father's Series

    This is the third in the series I am doing on the two grandfathers on both sides of the family. This is my wife's Grandfather on her Dad's side. I am pleased with this so far, but that is not saying much because I haven't gotten that far. As always, i would love to get your feedback. I like...

    Started by Mark Foster, 06-26-2010 08:44 PM
    • Replies: 7
    • Views: 282
    07-13-2010 08:43 PM Go to last post
  28. Bouguereau...Jeune italienne puisant de leau

    Black and white charcoal Canson Ingres...flannel grey 18x24 Well I owe Mr. Bouguereau an apology…I will try again in the future… I learned several things…its hard to draw a painting… I would at first using a paper towel…smear the black charcoal and then wipe across the whole drawing…then...

    Started by JLBerry, 06-29-2010 08:42 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 17
    • Views: 513
    07-13-2010 06:00 PM Go to last post
  29. worst ref EVER! Gunna need some help :(

    The only old photo we can find of my wife's mum is tiny. REALLY tiny - IRL it's only 1/4" from chin to top of head. I scanned it on maximum resolution. The one of her dad is better. Luckily, they are both under similar lighting. These two separate photos need to be combined into a double portrait...

    Started by Jeremy Lee, 05-14-2009 04:50 AM
    8 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 8
    • Replies: 74
    • Views: 3,465
    07-13-2010 05:15 PM Go to last post
  30. Rough Draft Sketch of Anita Baker

    Hello All, I have been reading posts and was inspired to create a portrait of one of my favorite singers. Anita Baker. I have included a photo and my current progress. I want to improve my work and would like constructive criticisim. I am not sure if I should go charcoal pastel or just colored...

    Started by Charity Woodard, 07-03-2010 01:31 PM
    • Replies: 7
    • Views: 255
    07-12-2010 11:43 PM Go to last post
  31. Portrait of My Friend WIP

    I just started a new drawing and I wanted to post a link to my blog post. I hope you'll check it out. It's in progress and it's photo-based. For people who are wondering how to draw without a grid, this may be helpful. Anyway, check it out, comments are welcome too. ...

    Started by Crystal009, 06-08-2010 06:06 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 15
    • Views: 604
    07-12-2010 11:38 PM Go to last post
  32. Boatload of Sac-a-Lait

    The Atchafalaya Swamp is a "Sportman's Paradise" for hunters and fishermen (hence, the Louisiana state motto). My dad and I frequently brought in a "boatload" of fish after a long day out in the basin. A very plentiful type of fish caught there is the "Sac-a-Lait", commonly known as a "Crappie" any...

    Started by electricajun, 06-30-2010 03:49 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 10
    • Views: 346
    07-12-2010 03:26 PM Go to last post
  33. Some Caricatures

    As a little Easter fun project I've made some caricatures of the Aesthetics , a Californian rock band. I've made them very tame, because I want to stay friends with them, after all I'm intending to use their songs for several more videos. Actually they liked it, what a luck! :70000000: Materials...

    Started by Kurt Fischer, 04-05-2010 05:22 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 11
    • Views: 395
    07-06-2010 06:44 AM Go to last post
  34. Mask WIP

    Hi All, I've started another drawing, this image caught my attention with the different textures. So far there is about 15hours, using pencils 4B, 2B, HB, H and 3H. This is still early days, initially I went through a 'lull' while doing the braid work - the photo I'm working from didn't have...

    Started by Andrew. Wilkin, 05-14-2010 09:45 PM
    8 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 8
    • Replies: 75
    • Views: 2,263
    07-05-2010 12:09 PM Go to last post
  35. Lady in Rain

    Hello again. I don't know if you believe it, but I am gonna do a drawing with water! hi hi At first I found a great picture of an athlete in the rain, but it is a lot more complicated than this. This picture was a litle altered in photoshop to give it a lot more contrast. So, who have...

    Started by JoanaT, 01-15-2010 09:25 AM
    10 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 10
    • Replies: 92
    • Views: 4,938
    07-05-2010 08:44 AM Go to last post
  36. Charcoal - Swing under Oak Tree

    This is a commission for my brother. One of his employees is retiring, and this is where he intends to spend most of his retirement. The details are as follows: - Strathmore 400 Series, 80#, 14x17 - charcoal - tissue, paper stump, kneaded eraser and clean, dry fingers - appr. 3 hours Thanks...

    Started by electricajun, 05-26-2010 12:08 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 14
    • Views: 655
    07-04-2010 02:21 PM Go to last post
  37. April and Brother - Commissioned Portrait WIP

    This is a new project I started. The scans show a detail of the hair which is more finished and a start of the face which is laid out lightly so far. The scan that shows more of the face is closer to the actual size of the drawing as I see it. The detail scan of the hair is much larger than the...

    Started by pencildrawn, 05-12-2010 05:47 PM
    6 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 6
    • Replies: 55
    • Views: 1,899
    07-04-2010 10:47 AM Go to last post
  38. April 6th 2010, 5:40 PM - WIP

    Dear friends, I ask for your understanding for being so egotistic and self-centered these days. I am still trying to get an understanding of what is going on right now in my life. While my phlife II was an 'outside-in' view of me, this project is now the reverse, 'inside-out'. Why the title?...

    Started by Reinhard, 05-06-2010 07:28 AM
    5 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 5
    • Replies: 42
    • Views: 1,390
    07-04-2010 04:37 AM Go to last post
  39. War Bonnet - WIP

    Hi, here is my new work (again an Indian). I use: Faber Castell pencils Picasso paper size: A4

    Started by duri, 01-11-2010 05:31 PM
    6 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 6
    • Replies: 54
    • Views: 2,716
    07-04-2010 04:35 AM Go to last post
  40. Portrait drawing from life - Liz

    Today was my first portrait drawing class from live model. It was an interesting experience and a class worth each cent, in my opinion. Some of the things I learned were things like, 1. loosening myself and work using my shoulder to get the overall shapes , rather than anchor my wrist on the...

    Started by Kiran TS, 11-23-2008 10:59 PM
    26 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 26
    • Replies: 251
    • Views: 10,846
    07-01-2010 10:28 AM Go to last post
  41. Ruby -- First in a long time

    A friend of mine asked me to draw her little girl for a Father's Day gift, so I managed to dust off all my drawing stuff and give it a go. The first one was a pretty rough reference photo, very small and it frustrated me a lot that I wasn't able to do it. I felt pretty rusty! I got her to take...

    Started by Caroline, 06-17-2010 02:23 PM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 15
    • Views: 457
    06-26-2010 09:52 PM Go to last post
  42. Cool Cliff Avril Commission

    Hi everyone, I hope you all are doing good. I know it's been a while. I've been so busy. Here's my latest drawing. This is a work that I did for Cliff Avril of the Detroit Lions. He called me a few weeks back after finding my website. I'm pretty happy with how this turned out although I had a hard...

    Started by golfiscool, 06-19-2010 06:58 AM
    • Replies: 3
    • Views: 203
    06-19-2010 05:41 PM Go to last post
  43. Joseph Solomon Jones

    1829-1915. aka great-great grand-daddy. :-)

    Started by Kathryn King, 05-28-2010 03:12 PM
    3 Pages
    1 2 3
    • Replies: 27
    • Views: 795
    06-18-2010 08:08 PM Go to last post
  44. My niece "Sofie"

    This was done with woodless graphite which I have adopted as my medium of choice for it's blendability. All comments and critiques are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

    Started by ldthibo, 06-18-2010 11:41 AM
    • Replies: 2
    • Views: 178
    06-18-2010 01:22 PM Go to last post
  45. More snow and light..

    Hi! I decided to show two quick drawings more. At least they are different from what most people do. 12x16" charcoal. C&C please. OK, no snow in the second one. Henrik

    Started by Henrik Stenlund, 06-15-2010 07:00 AM
    • Replies: 5
    • Views: 208
    06-17-2010 01:34 PM Go to last post
  46. The Patron Saint

    Woodless graphite on printer paper

    Started by ldthibo, 06-12-2010 05:10 AM
    • Replies: 4
    • Views: 252
    06-16-2010 09:21 AM Go to last post
  47. Snow and ice in March

    Hi people, I have been busy with other things. Drawing has not been forgotten and tomorrow I will go up north to the woods and lakes to draw. Below is a quick charcoal made recently on regular drawing paper 12x16". This is different from what I usually do. i wanted to stress more the...

    Started by Henrik Stenlund, 05-28-2010 02:49 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 10
    • Views: 435
    06-16-2010 04:24 AM Go to last post
  48. Portrait of a friend and her kid

    I am doing a portrait for a very good friend of mine. I saw this kid hours after he entered into this world, it was such a beautiful sight to see a new born baby. I promised her that I would make a portrait of him someday. I started working on this a couple of days back and I am enjoying every...

    Started by creek, 03-26-2010 04:53 AM
    2 Pages
    1 2
    • Replies: 16
    • Views: 739
    06-15-2010 07:39 PM Go to last post
  49. Beach Song

    I did this for a friend and pretty much because I felt like it. I wanted to fit a scene and here is an example of how I put the references together. 14X21" Arches HP.

    Started by scott_c, 06-10-2010 11:08 AM
    • Replies: 2
    • Views: 261
    06-14-2010 03:26 PM Go to last post
  50. Light - NO critiques please !

    Something am pondering on submitting to San Diego county fair's juried show this year, so I would appreciate if folks do not provide any critiques. I am not sure how it will turn out, so, whether I submit or not is dependent on how happy am with the outcome, but I'll try. I don't know what to...

    Started by Kiran TS, 04-26-2010 11:03 PM
    5 Pages
    1 2 3 ... 5
    • Replies: 46
    • Views: 1,730
    06-11-2010 01:21 AM Go to last post

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