Hello! I am 18 years old and have never had art lessons (only a few tips from my family). I've been drawing since an early age and do my best work when copying from a photo.

This is a drawing I did when I was 13 of an author named Frank Peretti. It doesn't look exactly like him, but hopefully it is close enough.

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Honey_Bee
Senior Member

"Oilily Girl"
« Reply #1 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 10:23 »

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This is a drawing of a young lady I copied from an Oilily ad in a magazine. I drew it from the age of 14-15 (it took a long time). I decided not to finish it, and left the outline sketch at the bottom, which I think actually makes for an interesting effect.

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Honey_Bee

"Victoria Lady"
« Reply #2 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 10:30 »

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This is one I drew from a photograph in a Victoria magazine when I was 16. It has a more unfinished, sketch-like appearance.
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Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #3 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 10:49 »

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I'm not sure exactly when I drew this one, but I believe it was in 1998 when I was 14. It is from an Elsie Dinsmore book illustration (an etching). The etching had vines coming down behind Elsie (the figure in the front), but I didn't draw them because I thought it was too distracting (and hard). I added a bit of fog around the people in the background so they would be less prominent.
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I like this one a lot. Not only is it a subject matter I think's neat, you have a range of values going here.

Honey_Bee

(Critiques welome)
« Reply #5 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 11:10 »

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Any critiques you can give me are welcome. From reading the Mini-Tutorial on J. D. Hilberry's web-site, I realize that I have been doing some things wrong and that I have a LOT to learn. (I always use my fingers to blur the pencil lines. From now on, I think I will try not to use my fingers.) Also, I just use regular old pencils, so I want to try buying some special pencils and/or charcoal to try to draw with.

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #6 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 11:15 »

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Also, I'm sorry I put so many drawings under one post. I thought that was the way I was supposed to do it, since that's what Alexei Antonov said to do. I just read under J. D. Hilberry's Welcoming post that we are supposed to have only one drawing per post, so I will follow those instructions from now on.


-Melissa

Honey_Bee

Thanks & question
« Reply #7 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 12:08 »

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BluedemonX, thank you for your comments! Which drawing were you talking about? The Elsie Dinsmore one?

rwhale

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #8 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 12:19 »

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You have a very obvious talent! Please keep drawing and posting your work.

Also, if you have questions, I highly recommend just asking. Everyone else here has been very friendly and helpful to me. It's nice to be in a group of people that want to see others improve and grow.

Thanks again for posting, and keep up the good work!

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Nothing worthwhile comes easy or cheap.

http://jrmlh3.home.attbi.com


Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #9 on: 13. Jun 2002 at 12:42 »

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Thank you very much, rwhale!

Yes, this forum seems like a nice place to be.


Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #10 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 05:48 »

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(I misunderstood Mr. Hillberry about where to post my drawings, so I'm now correcting it by putting them under this post.)

Here's one I did when I was 14 or 15 (I'm not sure which--I didn't always put the date on my works).
It was taken from a book cover (which had a castle in the background--I simplified it).

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Honey_Bee

My Hand
« Reply #11 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 05:51 »

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I don't know if this is that good, but I wanted to try drawing my hand, since I need practice drawing hands. I don't think the fingers (besides the thumb) are quite long enough, and I know it should have more values and not so much of an outline. Any critiques are welcome. (As long as it's not to say my hand looks ancient for a 17-year old! - Hopefully it doesn't, although I probably could have drawn it better if I had taken longer.)
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Honey_Bee

Nan (Brittney Irvin)
« Reply #12 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 05:55 »

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This is one I drew in 2001 when I was 17. It's of an actress named Brittney Irvin who also played in "Little Men" (like Amy).

It's not perfectly like the real photo, either, but more accurate than the Amy drawing.

I could probably make the face a little smoother, too, because I know it looks a little rough.

What do you think?
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Honey_Bee

Amy Price-Francis
« Reply #13 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 06:01 »

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This is one I drew of an actress named Amy Price-Francis in the role of "Amy" in the TV series "Little Men" (based on L. M. Alcott's book). My drawing has at least one serious flaw, I realized after I drew it. (I don't know why I didn't see it when I was drawing it.) The major flaw is her face is too wide. Then, I notice that her head is not tipped forward enough and her lips are too full. Also, I think her nose is too big. I'll post the picture I took it after, too, so you can see.

I also just noticed that there should have been more shadow to the right of her neck. I couldn't resist going back to the drawing and adding more shadow there. The other things are too hard to fix, but this one thing I knew I could easily add in, so I did. (I don't usually touch my drawings once I think they're finished, but I thought I should in this case.)
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Honey_Bee

Photo of Amy Price-Francis
« Reply #14 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 06:04 »

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Here's the photo I copied it from (not very well, I fear).
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Honey_Bee

Gweneth Paltrow Drawing
« Reply #15 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 06:14 »

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Here's another one.
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Honey_Bee

Wedding Dress Drawing
« Reply #16 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 06:26 »

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I drew this when I was fifteen. It was from a bridal magazine. If you notice the darker lines going through the picture, it's from the words that were printed on the back of the paper. (I didn't always have forethought.)
I tried to get rid of the lines on the computer without changing my drawing. (The lines were much more noticeable before.)

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Douglas_W
Full Member

For all things are made by and for God!

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #17 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 13:10 »

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Hello,

Just wanted to say that your drawings are coming along great, and your skill level is indeed high for your age. I would like to show you a drawing of one of the greatest old master draughtsman Leonardo Da Vinci, I think if you go to your local library an find some books on some old master drawings, and copy them it will help you beyond belief.
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To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:27)

For all things are made by and for God!

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #18 on: 14. Jun 2002 at 13:23 »

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I highlighted some of the areas which you might take interest to in his drawing technique.

1. Take a look a his line sensitivity, not everything is outlined. See how his lifting off of pressure of the medium in various area's gives the drawing a rich delicacy

2. Also take examine his cross hatching and directions of line. Not everything needs to be smudged or blended in your drawings. Look how little effort went into this drawing yet the directions of his line and thier placement fully complete the drawing.

3. Finally not everyone of his drawings were completely solved he left some construction lines and unfinished areas to give important areas weight and life.

Hope these things will help you out, they definatly did for me. Try copying an old master drawing, even this one if you like, try to imatate every line that he used and over time you will begin to pick them up and apply them in your own drawings. Oh by the way he was left handed so If the direction of his hatching is awkward try and find a right handed old master. I recommend Pontormo, or Rubens.

God Speed

Doug
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To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:27)

Honey_Bee

Thanks
« Reply #19 on: 17. Jun 2002 at 08:30 »

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Thank you very much, Douglas, for your compliments and suggestions! As much as I like that drawing by Da Vinci, and as much as he was a master, I'm not sure I want to draw in that style, with the unblurred, crosshatched lines. I might try it for an experiment, though. I also don't quite like the unfinished appearance (although I did it in one of my drawings). I like a more realistically finished style. That drawing did look realistic in the face, and I would like to try drawing like that just to see if I could make it work as well as he did (not to say that I expect to do as well).
Maybe I will try getting a book from the library, as you suggested, and try copying one of the drawings.
Thank you, again.
Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #20 on: 18. Jun 2002 at 15:37 »

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To try to explain a little better what I was saying in my last post...The Da Vinci picture is very intriguing. But, while I want to try that style at least once, I'd rather develop the style that I'm most used to doing, and try to draw more realistically. At times I do like to experiment, drawing more cartoonish or line drawings, but Da Vinci's line style isn't quite the style I want to draw for the most part. But I do like it.

(I think the picture I just picked for my icon is by Da Vinci; at least it's in a similar style....Forgive my ignorance.)

srivarey

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #21 on: 18. Jun 2002 at 16:54 »

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Melissa I just wanted to commend your effort you put in making such nice portraits. You seemed to be a born artist. I especially like the way you draw hair that clearly indicates your experise in drawing. I'm also more interested in realistic drawing rather than line drawing (in my opinion there should not be any line seperating two things in a picture instead they shoul be seperated only by the difference in the value . Am I right ). I'm slowly learning these techniques to create homogenous textures .

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The rate of edification is directly proportional to the initially realized ignorance

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #22 on: 18. Jun 2002 at 16:54 »

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RE: I'd rather develop the style that I'm most used to doing, and try to draw more realistically.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean you want to continue with line drawing, but have better draughtsmanship? Or are you considering painterly drawings like mine, or value and line studies like J.D's?

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #23 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 08:20 »

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Well, I would like to draw more like J. D. Hillberry. They don't have a lot of outlines, and they're more shaded and realistic looking. I still might draw with outlines, sometimes, since that's the way I'm used to and like pretty much, but I mainly want to get better at drawing like Mr. Hillberry.

I'm working on a portrait of Princess Diana right now, and trying not to outline the features so much.

Honey_Bee

Re: srivarey
« Reply #24 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 08:28 »

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Srivarey, thank you very much for your comments.
I think God did give me a gift to draw, although I've never really considered trying to become a professional artist (for a career). I think you are right about the lines, and that they should be separated only by the difference in value. (Although, obviously, there are different styles, and sometimes things in life do have outlines, such as lines on a book cover or computer.)
I haven't yet learned how to draw completely without outlines, but I'm trying in the drawing I'm doing now (of Princess Diana).

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #25 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 09:55 »

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RE: Well, I would like to draw more like J. D. Hillberry. They don't have a lot of outlines, and they're more shaded and realistic looking.

J.D. works almost exclusively in values. It'd be interesting to see him post drawings in progress - I wish I had taken pics of mine in progress. What artists like him typically do is, rather than draw outlines and then infill with a few bits of shading, they make a few small lines (dots, almost) to indicate where things are, maybe a few boxy lines to approximate where in space various masses of tones are, and then they mark in, shave off, blend, and refine those different masses of value.

We've been conditioned by our art education to think of it as being like a coloring book - you draw a circle and then grab your orange crayon and then color - voila, an "orange".

RE: I still might draw with outlines, sometimes, since that's the way I'm used to and like pretty much,

Nothing wrong with that. Beardsley, for one, was really good at line drawings.

RE: but I mainly want to get better at drawing like Mr. Hillberry.

I haven't read his book - but try some of these techniques to mix up your technique.

1) Negative drawing - rather than starting by drawing an outline with your pencil, put in a whack of black charcoal, and then erase out the outline of something. Don't worry about what's inside the outline. Just find some interesting object, and draw it by taking away black, looking for negative shapes rather than adding positive ones.

2) Add to the last technique. Find a face (you like them ) which is dramatically lit (you want a good range of values) and then negative draw the outline. Then, WITHOUT USING ANY LINES WHATSOEVER, squint and put in blocks of different grays in the shapes you see them. Pull highlights out with your eraser, blend with a stomp, use a white comte if you have to to get the real high notes.

I'm working on a portrait of Princess Diana right now, and trying not to outline the features so much.

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #26 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 10:03 »

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RE: The Da Vinci picture is very intriguing. But, while I want to try that style at least once,

Do keep in mind that Da Vinci was a painter. You are looking at a cartoon. Da Vinci wasn't too interested in getting the shadings in the cartoon too too perfect. The crosshatching is something he'd also do in his underpainting - I believe he like others underpainted in egg tempera, please correct me if I'm wrong, guys

Douglas_W

For all things are made by and for God!

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #27 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 17:34 »

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RE: Do keep in mind that Da Vinci was a painter

Yes, Da Vinci was a "painter", but he was much more interested in his study. He was a scientist, inventor, draftsman, engineer, architect, ?painter?; he was a renaissance man. In his lifetime he only actually completed under 20 paintings, and a majority of his energy went into the volumes of sketch books (which our now mostly the property of dear Mr. Bill Gates.). He was the first artist to study the physical proportions of men, women and children, and would lock himself up for hours to dissect and study human anatomy. To say that Leonardo da Vinci was a ?painter?, is like saying Michelangelo was a "sculptor".

RE: What you are looking at is a cartoon


Bluedemon you better explain to the difference between and old master caricatura, and Spiderman, so people don't misunderstand.

cartoon is a cariacture, and a cariacture is a distortion, or in Italian caricatura ie, an over loading or exageration. So although there may be some idealizing in an old master drawing it is much more focused on draftsmanship and representation of what the artist is recording. I just feel it is slanderous to label an old master drawing as a cartoon without explination.
« Last Edit: 19. Jun 2002 at 17:51 by Douglas_W » 142.59.137.11

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To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:27)


Douglas_W

For all things are made by and for God!

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #28 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 17:42 »

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semantics is a pain
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To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:27)

Douglas_W

For all things are made by and for God!

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #29 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 17:49 »

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one day he might be an old master
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To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:27)
BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #30 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 18:08 »

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OK, if we're going to start getting into a urinating contest over dictionary definitions....

se·man·tics Pronunciation Key (s-mntks)
n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)

Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language.
Linguistics. The study of relationships between signs and symbols and what they represent. Also called semasiology.
The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.

NOT

Semiotics - the study of signs and symbols....


BluedemonX

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RE: Yes, Da Vinci was a "painter", but he was much more interested in his study. He was a scientist, inventor, draftsman, engineer, architect, ?painter?; he was a renaissance man. In his lifetime he only actually completed under 20 paintings, and a majority of his energy went into the volumes of sketch books

Da Vinci didn't build many of his inventions. He was quite the engineer for his time though. He also had prodigious hand power and could straighten horseshoes with his bare hands. (There are people walking around today that can do the same thing).

However, I wasn't prepared to give a huge history lesson to explain that the sketch itself was not meant to be a completed work of art but a preliminary piece for a painting.

Sheesh


BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #32 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 18:14 »

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I did my Bachelor's in Semiotics, so I should know

And it isn't even remotely as interesting as you'd think.

I now wish I'd done my B.F.A instead

Douglas_W

For all things are made by and for God!

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #33 on: 19. Jun 2002 at 19:21 »

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Forgive me semantics is what I ment to say thank you for the correction.

urinating contest?, sorry if i offended you I just felt that the people of the forum needed an explination of the way you used cartoon, not everyone has the expertise in language that you do, and I just feel that a man such as Da Vinci needs respect he deserves.


My humble apologies.

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To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:27)


Melissa (Honey_Bee)

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #34 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 07:07 »

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BluedemonX, thanks for your reply about how Mr. Hillberry works on his drawings. If it's true, it's a very interesting way of doing it, and seems like it would be difficult. I'm afraid I wouldn't do very well the way you described, and I don't have the tools you talked about (charcoal, stomp, compte, and pointed eraser I would think you would need to erase outlines). I work with just regular writing pencils. I would like to buy some better tools, though. And it sounds like an interesting thing to try "Negative Drawing". Maybe after time I could get pretty good at it, though it sounds quite hard.


Phil

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #35 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 07:34 »

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Melissa,

I bet you wished you had never asked now!......lol

Still you learn something everyday.... at least we now know Da Vinci drew spiderman
« Last Edit: 20. Jun 2002 at 07:35 by Phil »

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http://uk.geocities.com/justmephil


BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #36 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 09:46 »

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RE: urinating contest?, sorry if i offended you

Oh! Gosh, no. I was continuing in a joking manner. Sorry bout that - inflection doesn't come over the Web. The actual term for splitting hairs is "p*ss*ng contest" so I thought I'd use a nicer word.

RE: I just felt that the people of the forum needed an explination of the way you used cartoon, not everyone has the expertise in language that you do, and I just feel that a man such as Da Vinci needs respect he deserves.

Oh, agreed

RE: My humble apologies.

None needed. I was the one that gave the false impression.

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #37 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 09:55 »

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RE: ]BluedemonX, thanks for your reply about how Mr. Hillberry works on his drawings.

Actually, I have no idea. He has written a book detailing his techniques, though.

RE: If it's true, it's a very interesting way of doing it, and seems like it would be difficult. I'm afraid I wouldn't do very well the way you described,

Part of this is a good thing. When I took drawing courses we did a bunch of unorthodox things like drawing a picture of a human being from a photo, but doing it upside down (e.g. copying the image, but drawing it upside down from an upside down reference). Your brain stops trying to interpret what you see and you get something that looks worse than what you'd have had doing it "normally" - at first. Then, you start looking at shapes differently. Sometimes it's good when, for example, drawing a human figure, drawing the shape that the person's arm makes with the body (e.g. a "negative shape") rather than the arm and body as positives.

Another exercise is to put your crayon down on the paper and look at an object and draw it, WITHOUT EVER lifting your crayon, or looking at your drawing. It's amazing how close it is after a while.

RE: and I don't have the tools you talked about (charcoal, stomp, compte, and pointed eraser I would think you would need to erase outlines).

Luckily these things are really cheap. Unlike oil paint at $7 a tube or so, a stomp is pennies, comte crayons you can get loose for less than a dollar. If you want to get really fancy shmancy you can buy chamois, etc. as well. But the most expensive drawing tool I've ever purchased was literally $5. And that isn't cheaping out, either.

RE: I work with just regular writing pencils. I would like to buy some better tools, though.

I think you'll find you have better results. Your standard schoolroom pencil WON'T give you the range of values you want.

RE: And it sounds like an interesting thing to try "Negative Drawing". Maybe after time I could get pretty good at it, though it sounds quite hard.

The thing is, musicians practice scales - artists should also practice drawing and shading. I haven't picked up brushes yet but I intend to practice blending and toning before even beginning to try painting a subject. Sometimes drawings or paintings must be executed as experiments, as practice, or even doing something novel to make your brain work in a different way. The hardest part about it is letting your ego allow you to do something that might not produce as "good" a result as you used to.

The result of me doing same is drawings like the one of Gibson. I'd post others, but they were destroyed in a flood.

There is one I did recently just as an exercise which I'll post.

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #38 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 13:54 »

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Thanks, BluedemonX. I shall have to buy some of those tools. (I'm glad they're not expensive.) Where is a good place to buy them? An arts & crafts store? Do they have them at regular stores like Wal-Mart? (Probably not.)

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #39 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 14:34 »

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RE:Thanks, BluedemonX. I shall have to buy some of those tools.

You don't HAVE to buy anything. It's just that you're selling yourself short if you don't try different materials and techniques. Some people LOVE comte by itself. I prefer a charcoal pastel. A vine charcoal I find annoying and brittle. In terms of ink pens some people prefer technical drafting pens, others prefer dip pens. And even then - a steel nib? Glass?

RE: (I'm glad they're not expensive.) Where is a good place to buy them? An arts & crafts store?

A dedicated arts store usually is the best place, but Michaels carries the same stuff. I find it is cheaper to buy from the dedicated art store, though, because the Michaels' stuff comes in a card package of multiples, rather than grabbing a couple of ones out of a bin.

RE: Do they have them at regular stores like Wal-Mart? (Probably not.)

I have no idea. There are on-line places to buy stuff, though. If you're interested I'll scare up some references.

TheDuke

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #40 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 14:39 »

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I absolutely love the unfinished drawing.. It shows the difference in the quality that a drawing can have. Very good work, keep it up!!

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #41 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 14:48 »

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OK I've found out the name of what I use.

It's called char-kole

http://pearlart.com/pearl/-225447.html

and it's a really velvety black.

Graphite sticks shine, which isn't what you want. Well, maybe you do. Anyway - I find it a pain to blend comte, which is why I use it when I want something with VERY hard edges. The majority of my drawings are executed in this char-kole stuff. It picks off/erases well, blends beautifully and you can get a really good range of darks with it.

Get you a kneaded eraser (or several - I use so much charcoal mine are useless after a few minutes - so I buy em bulk) and a couple of hard ones. Between blending the char-kole, erasing out whites and using a hard white comte you should get a dazzling array of values.

Alexei Antonov
Administrator

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #42 on: 20. Jun 2002 at 19:38 »

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Dear Douglas_W and BluedemonX,
Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am always happy to read your discussions, it stimulates the refined areas of my brain.
I AM VERY BAD AT ARGUING AND DEBATING, OR RATHER, I HAVE BECOME BAD AT THAT IN YEARS.
But I can share my view on history, which, naturally, I don't want to inflict on anyone.

Disputes about history lead to wars. The history of art is a part of the general human history, and here, too, wars are waged. There could be several interpretations of history, the matter is which one of them you believe to be true.
Here is the history of drawing that I believe in:
Drawing and painting are inseparable concepts, drawing is perhaps the construction and tone. I think that in the Renaissance epoch, artists did not boast of their drawings; drawings were, in general, study stages or the documentation of likeness with a subject or a model, used due to the absence of a photo camera, camera lucida: http://www.newcastle.edu.au/discipline/fine-art/theory/analysis/lucida-x .htm or camera obscura: http://www.newcastle.edu.au/discipline/fine-art/theory/analysis/an-orig2 .htm
This was probably the case until printing and etching came into play, but only in our time drawing as a genre took its respectable place on the horizon of culture.
I would like to return to the star of our forum, Honey_Bee, to her really skilful drawings and her passionate desire to learn.

Dear Honey_Bee, I join all the compliments to you and would like to add on my own behalf that you will certainly become a famous artist, this certainty is seen in all your drawings and thoughts.
However, in any praise, the important thing for me is "BUT".
Thus, BUT: Let's go back to Douglas_W's suggestion to copy old masters. He suggested taking a Leonardo da Vinci drawing that shows very well how to depict the lighting by means of lines of various thickness. I think that the ability to use the possibilities of lines is a must for a draftsman, and this can be easily learned from da Vinci. If you say it is not really your stile, it cannot be a reason why you should not absorb Leonardo's knowledge.
Jean Auguste Dominique Ingre said, "we shall be unable to create anything new until be get saturated with the ideas of the great." Perhaps, Douglas_W meant that if we decide to copy with the purpose of learning to draw, it is worthwhile to temporarily switch from photographs to copying old masters. By the way, in order to learn how to work with the tone and to understand the overall value of the contour, I would recommend copying something by J.D. Hillberry, if he does not mind, of course.
How useful and necessary it is to work with subjects, I suggest we discuss later. And, regrettably, I cannot say anything at all about cartoons because I don't know anything about them. Well, this was just a comment that does not require discussion.

Ladies and Gentlemen, to the easels!
Alexei

« Last Edit: 20. Jun 2002 at 20:35 by Alexei Antonov » 209.245.174.134

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www.artpapa.com

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #43 on: 21. Jun 2002 at 07:01 »

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I'd like to echo Mr. Antonov's statements.

Please note, Honeybee, that none of us are necessarily pushing any kind of course, dogma or style. Mr. Antonov is a classical painter: J.D. Hillberry is an almost photorealistic drawer (?) - as for me, I'm a wannabe Romantic painter - we have a religious painter in the classical style, and others in the mix. A merry motley crew.

I'll use an analogy here - I recently decided to learn the violin - it's something I've wanted to do since being a small child. I primarily wish to play "Classical" pieces (technically, Bach is Baroque, and Beethoven, Romantic) however, I have also made the decision to study fiddling and what is sometimes referred to as "gypsy" (Romanian, etc) violin technique.
You see, that stereotypical Appalachian toothless guy sawing away on a cheap fiddle can change strings with incredible ease, something that takes a classical violinist years to master - because fiddling music relies so much on extensive string changing, those who do it can change strings with ease- and teach others to do so. ( And the other style? Well, I've always had a wistful interest in Eastern Europe. I very nearly bought an apartment in Budapest two years ago.)

Anyway, enough digression - though I really am not interested in being a session player with the Dixie Chicks, playing those kinds of songs has intrinsic value because it forces you to try fingerings, tempos, string changes and other technical aspects you otherwise wouldn't get in your core style.

Same with painting or drawing - the classicist tries to solve the issue of rendering light with layers of transparent glazes. The impressionists put tiny dabs of contrasting colors side by side, which your brain makes "shimmer" like sunlight. Which is better? Depends on what you're trying to achieve and what works for you. Even if you're a diehard classical painter, you try at least one impressionist work to see how their technique works - and if you've got an open mind, you come away with some insight into how they solved the problem, which may or may not apply to a particular piece you do in the future. Likewise, the impressionist should study how the Classicist did it. The classicists developed draughtsmanship and technique - the impressionists are masters of color theory (they were around at the same time huge advances were made in chemistry and physics).

When I make the suggestion to try drawing a certain way, or Mr. Antonov echoes the suggestion to copy a Da Vinci or a Hillberry, it's because Da Vinci and Hillberry have studied, observed, and translated what they saw into drawings, solving certain technical problems along the way. It's common in Europe for art students to go to museums and copy existing paintings and drawings (note to Mr. Antonov - I've never seen that on this continent!) - not so that they can paint just like some long dead guy, but because that long dead guy figured out long ago that the cautious use of rose madder and burnt sienna in a certain way really nailed the look of some material or texture, and rather than reinvent the wheel, they learn from and benefit from that experience.

Mr. Antonov is right, though - this can be seen and often is seen as "dharma combat"*. However, it really shouldn't be. Thing is, everyone here brings SOMETHING to the table. You lose nothing by at least trying to do something a different way - at least, you've wasted a piece of paper and an hour to realise that a certain technique doesn't work for you; at most, you've elevated what you're trying to do to a whole another level.

* dharma - a very very rough translation - "appropriate way to act"

Phil

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #44 on: 21. Jun 2002 at 07:51 »

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Nicely put bluedemon

I may be at risk of repeating what you have already said here, if so, I apologise.

Lets not forget art is also about self expression and the way we do that is so, so, individual. It is good to have someone or a style to aspire too and learn from, but, don't get bogged down too deeply in trying to be a carbon copy, the chances are it will never work and you will just end up getting frustrated, loosing heart and giving up because you can't "mimic" that style exactly.

As has been said, try a variety of ways to draw stuff, experiment. Try drawing from life, believe me it is completely different from drawing from photos and you you learn one hell of a lot about texture, shade, form etc.

Eventually you will settle on the perfect style for you, your style.


« Last Edit: 21. Jun 2002 at 07:54 by Phil » 213.122.149.127

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http://uk.geocities.com/justmephil

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #45 on: 21. Jun 2002 at 08:04 »

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Mr. Antonov:

I hope you didn't mind me rephrasing your erudite statements: I so enthusiastically agreed with them that I basically restated them without realising it!

About comics: for the longest time, they were basically rapidly turned out drawings cheaply colored for the consumption of children. There are some, though, who have used the art form to do something really interesting.

http://www.mckean-art.co.uk/

Dave McKean at one point in time painted comic books. You did in fact hear me correctly - the panels were in fact <b>painted</b>, not drawn. Recently he has become a digital artist with a popular and often-copied style.
Considering your interest in digital manipulation, you might find this site interesting.

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #46 on: 21. Jun 2002 at 11:50 »

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Honey_bee:

Have a look at the quick portrait I dashed off of William S Burroughs higher up in this forum.

This is an exercise - it is earlier than the Gibson, and executed in about twenty minutes.

Sometimes you just want to play with the materials and see what they do. This was the result of me experimenting with two comtes, graphite AND char-kole.

Honey_Bee

Thanks
« Reply #47 on: 21. Jun 2002 at 13:56 »

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Thank you everyone, for your comments! It is nice to be able to learn without paying for expensive lessons. Since I'm also aspiring to be a writer, I don't always have a lot of time for art, but it's fun and I like to learn here and see the artwork of others.

BluedemonX

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #48 on: 21. Jun 2002 at 14:10 »

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That's the nice thing about art, Honey_bee, is that you don't need certification to be an artist. You can get the knowledge through an atelier, a PDF file, conversations, mentorship, trial and error, or even a full-blown Ph.D: but fundamentally there is no requirement saying you MUST be certified as an artist.

Guys with no education but talent and guidance can sell canvases, while people who are educated but lack skill, drive or discipline won't.

Honey_Bee

Re: theduke
« Reply #49 on: 25. Jun 2002 at 07:42 »

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Thank you for your comments regarding my unfinished drawing! It's one of my favorites, too, although not necessarily because it's unfinished. I just like the pose and the way I drew it better than some of my others.
I also took out the pattern that was on the coat in the ad...It was a plaid coat, but I thought that was too hard and I usually like things simple in drawings.

___________________________________
Re:

I absolutely love the unfinished drawing.. It shows the difference in the quality that a drawing can have. Very good work, keep it up!!

Honey_Bee

Princess Diana in progress
« Reply #50 on: 29. Jun 2002 at 07:13 »

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This is the drawing I'm working on currently. Of course, I'm going to fill all the background in and the shading.
I had already drawn the outlines before I saw what Phil said under my Amy drawing about measuring. Last night I tried doing that, but still couldn't seem to get it right. It seemed to make it worse, although I could have measured wrong. I made the face wider and chin bigger, but now I think it looks a bit too wide. Just scanning the drawing and the photo in and comparing them side by side and more the same size seems to help me see the differeces better. I see that her eyes are too small and flat on top, her neck is too wide on the right, her nose is too big, the right sleeve is too big, and her hair isn't big enough! lol I've got a lot of work cut out for me. And maybe you will all notice other things, too.

« Last Edit: 29. Jun 2002 at 07:20 by Honey_Bee »
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Honey_Bee

Princess Diana photo
« Reply #51 on: 29. Jun 2002 at 07:16 »

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Here's the photo I'm copying from.

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srivarey

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #52 on: 30. Jun 2002 at 11:41 »

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Melissa,
your Dayana portrait is coming along nicely. I cannot comment on shadings or values at this time as it is not fnished. I think the angle she is looking at appears to be a bit different from the reference(If you consider likeness with reference),though that has nothing to do with the likeness to princess Dayana. You may want to recheck eyes to make sure everything is perfect.I appreciate your idea to render a good background.

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The rate of edification is directly proportional to the initially realized ignorance

Phil

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #53 on: 30. Jun 2002 at 16:50 »

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Ooooops!

I'm sorry my handy tip was'nt quite so handy this time around. It maybe because you started using it on an almost completed picture. It does work, HONESTLY! But you must remember to measure each component against each other eye to nose, nose to mouth, mouth to cheek, cheek to eye etc.

BUT, The proof of the pudding is if it looks right. Even if it is out but it looks spot on, IT IS.

You do seem to have a talent for portraits, they do look like the subjects you are copying which is 90% of the battle. In the end, it's all about practice and trial and error.

One day (I would bet on sooner than later) you will get that unmistakable feeling of .........THATS IT, I'VE GOT IT! and then the real headaches start of trying not to loose whatever it is

Phil

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http://uk.geocities.com/justmephil

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #54 on: 01. Jul 2002 at 07:40 »

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Thanks for responding, srivarey and Phil.
The drawing is far from finished, Phil...I can still change some things, and will do so. I made sure to keep it light while I was still trying to get the shapes right. I know I must not have measured everything exactly, and yes, I had finished the main sketch before measuring, but hopefully I'll get it right.

Thanks!

-Melissa

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #55 on: 18. Jul 2002 at 10:25 »

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Ok, I'm posting one of my early drawings (as suggested under the "How long have you been at it" topic). I did this when I was about 9 years old, and it was one of the better things I drew at that time. (I don't think you want to see some of the WORSE things!) =)
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Pondhockey.

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #56 on: 18. Jul 2002 at 10:29 »

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Hey Melissa. Congrats on your first set of Graphite and Charcoal! thank God for Mom's and Walmart! Your on your way Now!

I would draw a bunch of 1 inch squares and fill each one with a differnt pencil from your new set, this way you can visually see the values of light and dark for each one, this should help you when your choosing a pencil for shading.

Can't wait to see the finished Diana It's going to be awesome!!

Marc

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There is no try, there is only do or do not.-Yoda

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #57 on: 18. Jul 2002 at 10:48 »

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Thanks, Marc! I hope the finished Diana drawing will be awesome, but we'll have to wait and see. It is coming along and looking more like her now, so that's good.
(And yes, I do thank God for my mom...Wal-Marts are nice, so I guess I should thank God for that, too.)

Shelby_Brannin
Junior Member

aRe: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #58 on: 19. Jul 2002 at 09:26 »

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I really like your portraits and Diana is coming along nicely. You have a lot of talent.

Shelby

Self Portrait
« Reply #59 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 10:04 »

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Thanks, Shelby.

Here's a self portrait I whipped up today, using some of my new graphite pencils....It doesn't look too much like me, but it has a resemblance. =) Again, after I scanned it in and compared it to the photo, I saw lots more flaws and differences (I saw some of them before, but I just wanted to do a quick sketch.) It turned out taking about 2 hours, I think. (I wasn't timing, but I think it was approx. 2 hours.)
« Last Edit: 22. Jul 2002 at 12:19 by Honey_Bee »

Honey_Bee

Re: Self Portrait
« Reply #60 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 10:09 »

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(The main problems in the drawing are that the face & neck are too wide and the nose is too small. And the eye on the left is up too high.)

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #61 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 10:30 »

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Here's the reference photo. I know I look about 14 years old, but I'm really 18. =) I like my drawing of me better, in some ways, because I look older (I didn't do that on purpose). I did, however, fix my hair a bit, because it was messy in the photo. It's not a very good photo of me, but I just liked the almost profile angle.
« Last Edit: 22. Jul 2002 at 10:38 by Honey_Bee » 199.174.242.129

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srivarey

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #62 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 11:57 »

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Nice job for a quick portrait !!! You seem to have captured the likeness though the finishing was a bit coarse(some people don't like fine finishing too) Did you use charcoal for hair they work incredibly for rendering hair(look at my harsha portrait). Take your time to produce beautiful and remarkable work with your talent(remember impatience is the first foe to drawing which I often battle with) JD says he worked over three months on some of his original drawings!!!
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The rate of edification is directly proportional to the initially realized ignorance

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #63 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 12:16 »

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Thank you, srivarey! I know it's a rather rough self-portrait. No, I didn't use charcoal. I'll have to try that in my Princess Diana portrait. Do you use the hard type of charcoal, or medium, or soft? I only have medium & soft charcoal.

srivarey
Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #64 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 12:26 »

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For fine detail and control on the sharpness of lines I use HB charcoal. I knew you didn't have it as I bought the same sets of graphite and charcoal(10 graphites with an eraser and sharpner,3 charcoals(2B,4B,6B) and 1 white charcoal with a kneaded eraser). Didn't you get the same ?? I bought few charcoal pencils and graphite sticks that are available loose. If you want to use some professional stuff get a catalogue from Mrart or blick ( it's (catalogue) free just give them your address). You can also try in your nearest art supply store. I still have to get some materials.

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The rate of edification is directly proportional to the initially realized ignorance

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #65 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 12:38 »

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Yes, I'm pretty sure I have those same two sets, srivarey. Maybe one of these days I'll go to an art store and buy a hard charcoal. Thanks for the info.

wingnut
Junior Member

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #66 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 14:46 »

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Hi Melissa

This is a great thread! Not only are your drawings wonderful, but the information in the replies are priceless! You have wonderful talent, and hope you are able to make the time to continue to practice and improve. My only advice to you at this point would be to keep working at it (as you so obviously are) and always try to improve your abitily to "see" your subject anyway you can.

`Wingnut

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`Wingnut

Phil

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #67 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 17:31 »

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Hi Melissa,

I have to congratulate you on your bravery . Self portraits have to be one of the hardest things to attempt (I've never had the guts yet) for the simple reason it is so hard to remove yourself from the subject and look at it objectively and not try to "improve" and add a bit of "flattery"

I think you did a real good job and kept it faithful to the reference.

Maybe a self portrait thread would be an idea for those brave enough to attempt it

Phil

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http://uk.geocities.com/justmephil


Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #68 on: 22. Jul 2002 at 18:42 »

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Thanks, Wingnut and Phil!

Yes, I'm getting lots of good advice, etc., and saving a lot of it as a Word file. One of my sisters remarked when she saw the self-portrait that it looked a bit like herself and our other sister. So, it's a mix of all of us sisters, though I think it looks the most like me (good thing). I've tried a few self-portraits before, but they never came out well because I was looking in the mirror and things changed when I was looking up and down. Sometime I want to draw a self-portrait that I take a lot longer to draw, since I'm sure it would be better that way.

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #69 on: 23. Jul 2002 at 14:17 »

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I made some subtle differences to the self-portrait a last night, but I won't post it unless you want me to. I don't want to take up too much space, & it's not much different. In some ways I like it better (it's smoother, for one, and the jaw looks more like mine), and in some ways I don't. I used charcoal in the hair, and it looks smoother, though not necessarily more like the photo. The bad thing is I wasn't looking at the photo when I changed it (because it's a digital photo on the computer & I remembered pretty much what needed to be changed), but it does look more like me in some ways, now.

monalisa

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #70 on: 25. Jul 2002 at 16:30 »

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I'm very impressed....your very talented Melissa.

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Monalisa


Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #71 on: 25. Jul 2002 at 17:30 »

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Thank you, monalisa! Both of my parents are artisic (though they don't draw/paint anymore), so that's where it comes from (& ultimately from God).

Nikki112459

Art is the key to inner peace

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #72 on: 01. Aug 2002 at 18:56 »

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Melissa, try and get your parents to paint and draw again. I was forty when I pick up my brush and pencils again.

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #73 on: 02. Aug 2002 at 15:37 »

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Hi, Nikki....Yes, I would like my parents to do some more art. I've never even seen anything my dad drew, because it was a long time ago and we don't have them anymore. He drew a few portraits, like me, so it would have been really neat to see them. I told him he should draw again, but he said he has no motivation. My mom might be more likely to draw/paint again, so maybe I'll urge her on.

absolute

Re: Wedding Dress Drawing
« Reply #74 on: 16. Aug 2002 at 16:59 »

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on 14. Jun 2002 at 06:26, Honey_Bee wrote:I drew this when I was fifteen. It was from a bridal magazine. If you notice the darker lines going through the picture, it's from the words that were printed on the back of the paper. (I didn't always have forethought.)
I tried to get rid of the lines on the computer without changing my drawing. (The lines were much more noticeable before.)

GREAT stuff! i dont see the writing on the back..you removed it pretty good.


Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #75 on: 17. Aug 2002 at 07:33 »

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Thanks, absolute.

Yvan
Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #76 on: 19. Aug 2002 at 09:05 »

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Amazing!

anchors

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #77 on: 20. Aug 2002 at 07:53 »

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Hi Honey _ Bee
I am missing your drawings....
Please post some more.



Marcelo

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #78 on: 20. Aug 2002 at 10:11 »

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Thanks, guys. ...I'll post more when I draw more. I'm being lazy and not doing much on my Princess Diana portrait. (It's frustrating me because I see that there are lots of mistakes.)

srivarey

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #79 on: 20. Aug 2002 at 10:22 »

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Hello melissa,
I wanted to tell you when I draw a portrait there must be many instances where I get frustrated.Take it just as a manifestation of your urge for perfection and try to do what you can with skill and experience you aquired sofar.

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #80 on: 21. Aug 2002 at 10:43 »

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Thanks, srivarey. I'll try.

absolute

Re: Amy Price-Francis
« Reply #81 on: 21. Aug 2002 at 16:01 »

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on 14. Jun 2002 at 06:01, Honey_Bee wrote:This is one I drew of an actress named Amy Price-Francis in the role of "Amy" in the TV series "Little Men" (based on L. M. Alcott's book). My drawing has at least one serious flaw, I realized after I drew it. (I don't know why I didn't see it when I was drawing it.) The major flaw is her face is too wide. Then, I notice that her head is not tipped forward enough and her lips are too full. Also, I think her nose is too big. I'll post the picture I took it after, too, so you can see.


I also just noticed that there should have been more shadow to the right of her neck. I couldn't resist going back to the drawing and adding more shadow there. The other things are too hard to fix, but this one thing I knew I could easily add in, so I did. (I don't usually touch my drawings once I think they're finished, but I thought I should in this case.)

..im still pretty new to how this goes ..im still not exactly sure how all of this works with posting on certain places...but i just wanted to say i really like this one,..the portrait of the woman. ...i just stopped in to do some surfing around....the girl above this ..in the oval...would make a great tattoo.its hard for me to keep track of who is who here..until i get use to the names.
jim
Jim.

absolute

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #82 on: 21. Aug 2002 at 16:16 »

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HELLO honey_bee...ive been looking at your stuff....this diana is looking awesome....and i hope you finish it,i have been woodburning pictures for a long time,,and trying to get back into the feel of drawing again,...i like the way you have picked out the detail in her hair already...sometimes while im drawing ..i will try to shade using a very sharp pencil..that i keep sharpening on a second peice of paper,..and i try to draw very light.and build as i go along...to where my pencil is barley dragging on the paper..with just a very light strand that looks almost like a hair...have to run be back later

absolute

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #83 on: 21. Aug 2002 at 16:48 »

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HONEY_bee....sorry i cut that post short ..,i m going to start a new topic here that i think would be a good idea,
in hope that it catches on.i will call it "tips and ideas........just on tips for shading etc,etc....sorry to post here,..but im not sure how else to contact people.

Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #84 on: 22. Aug 2002 at 07:47 »

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I don't like tattoos, so that's not a nice comparison for me. But thank you for your compliments, anyway.


I'm going to post a few of my early drawings, just for fun. These are some of the best ones I drew then.
These Pilgrim's Progress pictures I copied from book illustrations. I don't know where the book is, now, so I can't very well post the original illlustrations.

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Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #85 on: 22. Aug 2002 at 07:51 »

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Pilgrim's Progress 2
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_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #86 on: 22. Aug 2002 at 07:56 »

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Rattley, my stuffed animal that rattles.
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Honey_Bee

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #87 on: 22. Aug 2002 at 08:00 »

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One more...
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srivarey

Re: Drawings by Melissa (Honey_Bee)
« Reply #88 on: 22. Aug 2002 at 16:37 »

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Melissa I liked watching your early drawings.They are nice and speak of your desire to draw since your childhood. Unfortunately I don't have any of my early drawings with me right now to share with you guys.