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Subject: "How to Reinvent an Arts Education for our Public Schools."   Page 1 2 3 4
         
General Discussions Transcendental artist conversation. Topic #6
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Eddie Fication
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Mar-07-03, 07:30 PM ()
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11. "Humans share 98% their genes with apes"
 
   Alexei, like yourself I believe no master's perfect, and quality draftsmanship's an asset; but I don't agree that it's crucial for fine painting. Oil's a flexible, forgiving medium, that remains in a malleable state for a long while. Most mistakes can be amended by painting over them, blending them away or excavation with a palette knife.


 
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Mar-07-03, 08:29 PM ()
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12. "RE: Humans share 98% their genes with apes"
 
I can agree about fine paintings. Yes, drawing is not critical thing for people who placed those paintings in the museums and for those people who have learned that the mistakes are OK.

But as soon as we start talking about education, teach students to do mistakes appears to be wrong. Isn't that ridiculous to hear from a teacher something like this: "Look what a beautiful mistake did Picasso make in every painting. Let's stop practicing with drawing and start learning how to get away with this, meaning verbally explain to people that this is considered beautiful now... Renoir, van Gogh, Courbet did this, why shouldn't we ...?"


 
Eddie Fication
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Mar-08-03, 01:46 PM ()
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13. "Painting by numbers"
 
   I think accurate transcription's the tip of the iceberg; seldom yielding in great Art:

Many works' psychological power, comes largely from choice of posture and exaggeration/accentuation of anatomy:

Classical Art often has a somewhat idealized, simplified (sometimes cartoonish) look about it that temporal facsimiles don't give.

Imo proper form probably should be learned initially, but not necessarily adhered to.


 
Adminadmin
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Mar-09-03, 05:06 PM ()
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14. "RE: How to Reinvent an Arts Education for our Public Schools"
 
Let's go back to the beginning.
We are talking about Mr. Christian Seidler's "How to Reinvent an Arts Education for our Public Schools", remember?

What do you offer to him? Cut off drawing classes or reinvent drawing methodology?
Or perhaps drawing classes are absolutely unnecessary?

Our cultural society came to the point when in order to be able to reinvent education we have to increase traditional disciplines because there's not much room to decrease them.
In the middle of twentieth century, when craft and art gradually split up, they started to teach philosophy (Want to do) instead of craftsmanship (how to do) in the art institutes.

I believe that Mr. Seidler developed very well this part of resolving art education problem in his article.
And it seems to me that we can help him only when we have constructive realistic adjustments to what he is offering.

Finally, looks like we are discussing personal taste issues and get very far from our major topic "How to Reinvent an Arts Education for our Public Schools"

Maybe this place http://www.artpapa.com/forum/DCForumID29/2.html will be more appropriate to discuss contemporary aesthetic problems.

Or we can talk about the Seidler School here?

If so, the following two images will probably explain what Mr. Sadler mean by saying "Painting is 75% drawing and value is the most important component in a color decision in classical painting."

Buy comparing this two pictures we can say that there is not much difference between them. Only in the first image some pigmentation illustrates coloring characteristics. Desaturated picture on the right evidently shows to us that the painting looks as much attractive as the colored one.
Like one of the great masters says, you can always go and buy some pigments for coloring
but you never will be able to buy the ability to draw.





 
Christian Seidler click here to view user rating
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Mar-09-03, 05:18 PM ()
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15. "RE: How to Reinvent an Arts Education for our Public Schools"
 
Perfectly said and illustrated Alexei!

The school of happy accident painting has been dead for 40 years and offers nothing for the future. The future now belongs to those who can master the craft to it's highest level and then apply it to those modern thories that demands great knowledge and performance to accomplish.


 
Eddie Fication
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Mar-09-03, 07:50 PM ()
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16. "Alla Prima"
 
   Let's go back to the beginning.
We are talking about Mr. Christian Seidler's "How to Reinvent an Arts Education for our Public Schools", remember?
What do you offer to him? Cut off drawing classes or reinvent drawing methodology?
Or perhaps drawing classes are absolutely unnecessary?

Er...'Imo proper form probably should be learned initially...'

My first post was solely in response to this statement:
"Painting is 75% drawing and value is the most important component in a color decision in classical painting."
I don't know how this figure was arrived at, nor do I believe it to be true.
My subsequent posts have been replies to replies.
I didn't realize by contributing to this thread, I had an obligation to remark on the opening post also!
(Not that I'm qualified to speak about the "American School System" - being English.)

I have a problem with the example included in your most recent posting; as you seem to be implying that painting is simply "coloring", overlooking at least brushwork and the fact that paintings can be produced without the use of any lines.
I don't agree those images are equally attractive either, as the colour adds extra visual stimulation and warmth.
Modern supermarkets are stocked with aisles of brightly coloured packaging for good reason.


Rembrandt’s impasto


 
Christian Seidler click here to view user rating
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Mar-09-03, 08:25 PM ()
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17. "RE: Alla Prima"
 
Your perspective is limited by your knowledge of painting. Brush work is one of the hardest aspects to add to a performance in painting, that is why Sargent is arguably the finest painter in history. If you look at all the painters that started the alla prima execution from Valasquez on you find that artists can be judged in their ability by how many brush strokes it took them to paint a nose or a pair of boots. To say more with the least was a great challenge. Your statement about lines for the view of the amount of drawing in the "act" of painting is uneducated my friend. A brush stroke is a pull of the brush, the pulling in the right direction with a given width and length is the act of drawing, using the same developed talent and ability. Don't limit your concept to using a pencil.


 
Eddie Fication
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Mar-09-03, 08:57 PM ()
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18. "Thanks for the history lesson"
 
   So you're basically saying all brushstrokes fit your personal definition of "drawing", therefore I must be ignorant?
(Semantic subterfuge's pretty desperate dude.)

Drawing
22.
a.
To inscribe (a line or lines) with a pencil or other marking implement.
To make a likeness of on a surface, using mostly lines; depict with lines: drew a map of the area; drawing landscapes and still lifes. - www.dictionary.com

'A brush stroke is a pull of the brush,'

Stroke
12.
a.
A single mark made by a writing or marking implement, such as a pen. - www.dictionary.com

Btw I didn't mention or imply pencils anywhere in my previous post.


 
Christian Seidler click here to view user rating
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Mar-09-03, 09:28 PM ()
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19. "RE: Thanks for the history lesson"
 
Ignorant of the Alla Prima Technique as discribed by Sargent, yes I believe you are. It is a common analysis in painting. I stole the quote from John Sandan, President of the Portrait Institute of New York and he was quoting Sargent.
So if men such as these discribe it as such and I see exactly what they are talking about, I agree with them.
You do not, your choice, enjoy.



 
Eddie Fication
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Mar-09-03, 09:48 PM ()
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20. "Which quote?"
 
   What does alla prima mean?

Alla prima: From the Italian meaning 'first time,' a method of oil painting in which the picture is completed with an application of paint to the entire surface rather than traditional building of the image with several layers of paint. An oil painting can be completed in one sitting using a technique called “alla prima.” One of the great masters of this style was Peter Paul Rubens.

This method is sometimes called direct painting. The painter will start with broad, general strokes of thin paint to get the general form. Usually, the darks are painted in first. In the next step, paint is applied directly over this wet paint in thicker, more opaque layers.

http://painting.about.com/library/blpaintingtip22.htm


 


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